is like a chaver (companion), and chalav Yisrael (Jewish-supervised milk). Chiltit cut by a goy (non-Jew)'s knife. The wife of a chaver, eshet chaver kechaver (A chaver's wife is like a chaver), eved chaver kechaver (A chaver's servant is like a chaver), and chalav shechalavo goy (Milk milked by a non-Jew) ve'ein Yisrael ro'ehu. You heard it, boys. That is the summary of today's daf (page). Now we'll do it. It's not a bad idea to do the summary first.
Sticks. Like ChatGPT. South, south-southwest. So it's lamed-tet. Masechet Avodah Zarah. Refu'ah, Chayim ben Simchah, Yaakov ben Henriette. Hatzlachah beruchniyut uveghashmiyut.
Kevashim are pickled foods of the goyim. We said they're mutar behana'ah (permitted for benefit). You can't eat them, but the reason you can't eat them is darkan litein letochan yayin—they would soak them in wine. Amar Chizkiyah: lo shanu ela shedarkan. That's only when it's their practice, meaning it's not certain. Therefore, you could benefit from them. Aval yadu'a, yadu'a: if you know that they put the wine in it, afilu hana'ah asur. If it's a doubt, they're not going to prohibit benefit. All this is derabbanan (rabbinic). So hem amru vehem amru. In a case of doubt, benefit is permitted, but eating is certainly prohibited. However, beyadu'a, even benefit is prohibited.
Umai shena mimuryas? We can't get away from this. What's the difference between muryas—which is basically fish innards—and wine? The Rabbis permitted benefit from muryas even though it was certain, or nearly certain, that the wine was there. Why, then, are we strict about kevashim when it's certain, but lenient about muryas and permit benefit from it?
The Gemara says: What do you mean? Kavanah (intention). Hatam, by the muryas, le'aburei zuhama. What's the intention in putting the wine in there? Just to offset the bad smell. Therefore, the wine is being used to get rid of something; they're not using it for a constructive purpose. Aval, when it comes to the wine in the kevashim, they're putting it in to give it flavor. Hatam lemitukei ta'ama. That's significant.
So the goy's intention matters. What did they make issur (prohibition) on this wine of the goyim? Stam yeinam (ordinary gentile wine). When they're using it to enhance the food, they prohibited it. But when they're just using the wine to get rid of the smell, they were lenient. The Gemara says that's the first opinion, Chacham Chizkiyah. Chizkiyah again finds the kevashim more stringent than muryas, because kevashim has a chumrah (stringency) over muryas: kevashim is lemitukei, whereas muryas is le'aburei.
Chacham Rabbi Yochanan says differently: afilu yadu'a nami mutar. He argues with what we just said. Even by kevashim, where it's known that they put the wine in, it's still permitted for benefit. What do you mean? We just said lemitukei. So now the Gemara asks Rabbi Yochanan: mai shna mimuryas le-Rabbi Meir? Muryas, according to the Chachamim, was permitted, so there's no difference. But why would Rabbi Meir prohibit muryas, as we learned? Because people put wine in it. But people put wine in kevashim, too. Why would you be stricter with muryas? We just saw a reason to be lenient with muryas, and here we have the very opposite: Rabbi Yochanan says that even if it's known that wine was put in the kevashim, it's permitted. So why did Chacham Meir prohibit muryas?
The Gemara says: no, hatam yedi'a mamasho, hacha lo yedi'a mamasho. By the muryas, the wine is actually there. You see it sitting in the muryas. When they dipped their bread, they actually dipped it in the muryas and the wine; that was part of the dip. Hacha lo yedi'a mamasho: here, it gets swallowed up and absorbed into the kevashim, and therefore it doesn't spoil. So it's not really for the taste, so to speak, as it is in the case of muryas. Now we have a different chilluk (distinction). Rabbi Meir sees more reason to be lenient with kevashim. Before, we said kevashim should be more stringent because it's lemitukei. Now we're saying there's a sevara (reasoning) to say kevashim should be more lenient because you don't see the wine; it's absorbed in the kevashim.
And muryas? Well, muryas is muryas. Hatam yedi'a mamasho, sheharei matbilin bo: you're dipping in it. Veharotev ne'echal vehayayin ne'echal imo. It's mamash: you're dipping into the wine. Hacha lo yedi'a mamasho, she'ein ochel harotev ela hayarak: you're eating the vegetable, not the liquid. U-mah shenatan hayayin bayarak lo natan ela lehitkayem. They put the wine into the vegetable just so it wouldn't spoil. It was a preservative. Exactly, it's a preservative. That's the whole reason. The point is, if you're not eating the wine, what are you putting it in there for? The purpose of putting the wine in, seemingly, should be to taste it. If you're not tasting it, what else are you doing? He's doing it lehitkayem.
Utarit terufah vetzir she'ein bah dagah. This is the whole sugya. Tuna fish, dolphin meat—Reb Moshe. The Gemara says one of the things you're not allowed to eat is the chilek. Amar Rav Nachman, bar Abba amar Rav: what is this chilek? Sultanit, some type of small fish. It's tahor (ritually pure), actually. The problem is you don't see fins and scales until they develop. Umai issura? It's a kosher fish. Deshe'ar deg tamei (ritually impure) oleh imah: they mix other fish with it. How are you going to know which one is kosher and which one isn't, since neither has fins and scales yet? Therefore, there's no way to tell them apart.
This is where the whole issue comes from. On the boat, they used to take the regular fish and the dolphin meat and grind it up already. By the time it came off the boat, you had a mixture of dolphin meat and tuna meat. That's why Chacham Feinstein, the whole Star-K, and all these other organizations had to come up with frum brands where there's a mashgiach (kosher supervisor) on the boat, to make sure they don't mix the items up.
Tanu Rabbanan: ein lo achshav. A general question about kosher fish. Reb Moshe—they use Reb Moshe's heter for milk and use it on fish. Since there's not supposed to be dolphin meat in it, let's put OU on it, and OU is relying on what Reb Moshe would have ruled if he were alive. But he isn't alive. I don't follow; what happened? He wrote a teshuvah about the dolphin meat. They're relying on that. They're not supposed to use dolphin meat in the Star-K; Star-K is OU. So OU is relying on what Reb Moshe would have said if he were alive.
So today it's a heter? They're using the milk heter for the Star-K? Some say it's a little different because you're not meant to catch them, because you can't catch them, so it's all mixed up. But if there's one piece of meat, then you can't. That's what Rav Ovadia said about the boats. He checked on the boats and said there was dolphin meat, that it should be prohibited, and that we should have mashgichim on it. Right, he said mashgiach temidi, actually.
Tanu Rabbanan: ein lo achshav. If it doesn't have snapir vekaskeset (fins and scales) now, as with the fish we're discussing, the sultanit, but it's going to grow them, be'ezrat Hashem, you hope, later on, kegon the sultanit veha'afitz, harei zeh mutar. The pasuk (verse) says, “Vechol asher ein lo snapir vekaskeset.” The Gemara expounds ein lo, as we learned in Sotah: ayen lo—check whether it will ever develop them. If it will, it's okay.
Yesh lo achshav ve'atid lehashir is the reverse: it has them now, but they're going to fall off when it comes up from the sea. Some say this is the swordfish, kegon akunus ve'apunas... This is the week of fish, no meat this week. It sounds like the whole week's menu. Ketaspatiyas ve'achspatiyas ve'atunas. Swordfish has fins and inside the... They claim that when it comes out, it sheds. What, the mahi-mahi? Mahi-mahi. Mutar.
As the pasuk says, “Kol asher ein lo snapir vekaskeset bamayim.” The Rabbanan say bamayim—that's it. Even if it has them only in the water, it's kosher. “Kol asher ein lo snapir vekaskeset bamayim.” So it's part of the ayin, either way, forward or backward? No. It's “Kol asher ein lo snapir vekaskeset bamayim.” If it has them in the water, it's kosher, straightforward. We have to see how all those other fish we discussed relate to fish that lose their signs.
Hichriz Rebbi Abahu beKisari. Rebbi Abahu announced in Kisari: kirvei dagim, the fish innards, or the fat of the fish, ve'ubaran, the caviar, the eggs, nikchin mikol adam. That's a good drive-by: you can buy them from any store. You don't have to ask questions; no kashrut (kosher status), nothing. Why? You don't have to be concerned. Chezkatan einam ba'im ela miPelusa. They came from Pelusa; that's the only place they got this stuff from, and Aspamya. In those places, they don't have dagim teme'im. So he said, “Rabotai, if you're in Kisari, you can buy the fish. You don't need a hashgachah; go to the goy's fish store and buy these two products.” Chazakah: we know where they came from. They came from a place where there are no non-kosher fish.
Does this mean that as long as they had scales at some point in their life, it's kosher? That's what it sounds like from this Gemara. And swordfish, right? That's the swordfish. You said swordfish had scales when it was young and loses them as it gets older. It could be that swordfish is different, because it loses them in the water. This is talking about a fish that has them in the water and sheds them once you take it out. So it could be that swordfish has a different din, because it loses them in the water, and therefore it doesn't have them bamayim.
Ki ha de'amar Abaye: hai sahanta deBav Nahara, the sultanit that comes from the river Bav, sharya, because there's nothing else in that river. Only that fish. So what are you worried about? Any fish that comes from that river, you're not worried it was mixed up with other non-kosher fish, because that's all they have in that river.
The Gemara asks, mai ta'ama? Why don't they have non-kosher fish in the river Bav? Ilema mishum deridifei maya, because it has a strong current? What do we know about a dag tamei? A dag tamei doesn't have a spine. Keivan delit leh chut hashidrah, it doesn't have a spine like regular fish, so it's not strong and can't swim in rivers with strong currents. Beduchta deridifi maya, where the water is strong, lo matzi ka'ei.
The Gemara says that can't be, for a simple reason: ha ka chazinan deka'ei. We see that they do exist. We see dag tameis in strong rivers with strong currents. So why aren't you concerned that there are non-kosher fish in the river Bav? Ella mishum demelichi maya: because it's salty, and non-kosher fish don't have scales to filter the salt. Veha'i dag tamei, keivan deleit leih kalpei, it doesn't have scales, beduchta demelichi maya lo matzi ka'ei. I guess the salt is abrasive. The Gemara says, “I'm sorry, veha ka chazinan deka'ei”—we see that tamei fish does exist in salt waters.
Ah, ella mishum dela marbei tina dag tamei: the riverbed of the river Bav doesn't support the growth of non-kosher fish. Why? There may be tar or something on the bottom. Certain silt. No problem. Certain rivers aren't conducive to the growth of certain fish because of certain chemicals at the bottom. Either temperature or chemicals at the bottom of the water, so fish multiply, but non-kosher fish don't multiply in this water—not because of the current and not because of the salt. Silt is granular material composed of finely divided particles smaller than sand but larger than clay. It's often found in riverbeds and flood plains. There you go. That's it; you couldn't have said it better. Texas.
Amar Ravina: ha'idna deka shafchi bah Nahar Goza uNahar Gamda, asiri. Today, they rerouted some of these rivers into Nahar Bav, and therefore we have a problem, because those tamei fish come from other rivers. Now, when you're going to use sultanit from the river Bav, you have to be concerned that the net may have caught non-kosher fish with it, and you can't tell which ones were kosher. Therefore, you really need a mashgiach on board.
Amar Abaye: hai chamara deyamma, the sea donkey—it's a type of fish, or a creature, that looks like a seahorse. This is a sea donkey. Shari. I'm not sure what the signs are. What, it has split hooves? What is it? Tora deyamma, the ox of the sea, asir. It's exactly the opposite: the non-kosher one is kosher and the kosher one is not kosher. The Gemara says, “Vesimanach tamei tahor, tahor tamei”: a chamor, which is tamei, is tahor; a shor, which is tahor, is tamei.
Amar Rav Ashi—it's amazing, is this a nine-day menu? Shefarnuna, shefarnuna shari. Nuna is fish, like we say in the Azamer Bishvachin, “venunin im rachashin.” Nunin, nunim means fish. Shefarnuna shari. Kdashnuna asiri. How are you going to remember that? Vesimanach kodesh laHashem: things that are usually kodesh are prohibited for benefit. Ika de'amrei, kvarnuna asur. How are you going to remember that? Vesimanach kivrei ovdei chochavim: the graves of ovdei chochavim are tme'im. Therefore, this dag kvar is also prohibited.
Rabbi Akiva ikla leGinzak. Aren't the graves of Jews tamei, too? They're also tamei, but I guess they use ovdei chochavim to show that they're not kosher—or more tamei. Rabbi Akiva ikla leGinzak. Aitu lekameih hahu nuna. Unbelievable story! They brought him a fish that looked like the chipusha fish. He wanted to make sure it was kosher, so he did an experiment: chafyeh bedikula, he put it in a basket. As a result, some of the scales started popping off. Chaza de'iklof vesaryeh. He said, “Mutar.” So it wasn't a chipusha? It looked like a chipusha, which is tamei, but he wanted to make sure whether it was or wasn't, so he tested it with the basket. The scales came off, so he said, “Rabotai, it's kosher.”
Rav Ashi ikla leTamdorya. They brought him a fish that looked like a shlufcha. Shlufcha is also a dag tamei—an eel. Nachteih lahadei yoma, so he put it in the sun. Guess what? Chaza dahaveh beih tzimchei. It had very, very light scales, vesaryeh, mutar. Rav Ashi went to another place, and they brought him a fish that looked like shefarnuna, also a dag tahor, a dag tahor. Chafyeh bechifei chivartei: he put it in a white basket, a white bucket, so he could see whether it had black scales, since the scales are darker. Guess what? Chaza de'iklof, and therefore sharyeh. They used these tests.
Rabbah bar bar Chanah ikla akra le'Agma. They brought him this sultanit fish. He heard a man calling it batei. Look at that, they had the batei fish! Batei fish is tamei. Amar, mideka kari leih batei, shema mina davar tamei it beih. It must be mixed with something. Lo achal mineih. The next morning, litzfra, he checked them when it was light, and guess what? Ashkach beih davar tamei. They had mixed it with something non-kosher. He said, “Baruch Hashem, kari anafsheih lo ye'uneh latzaddik kol aven” (Hashem saves the righteous from stumbling into sin). Hashem protects the righteous so they shouldn't eat things like that, as we learned in Masechet Gittin on daf zayin.
Veha-koret shel chiltit. Koret shel chiltit is a very strong type of fenugreek. Fenugreek is chilbeh. Chilbeh! That's right, chilbeh. Arabic. What do they call it? Fenugreek? Here it comes again; now it has a different name, too. Chilbeh, for sure, I know. I don't think it was fenugreek. What do they call it in Hebrew? Cress. There we go, another ayin. What do they call the chiltit? Don't even say. Fenugreek is tiltan, they call it. Right, tiltan. Okay, chiltit is very sharp, by the way. Sharp.
Mai ta'ama? What's the reason you can't buy chiltit from a goy? Mishum demapsekei leih besakina. That's it: the mailman cuts it with the letter opener. Ve'af al gav de'amar mar, noten ta'am lifgam mutar (an imparted defective taste is permitted). The knives haven't been used for 24 hours, so the meat on the knife will come out into the chiltit, and by the time it comes out, it's defective. We all know noten ta'am lifgam mutar, according to one shitah.
The Gemara gives the famous opinion: agav churpa dechiltita, machlya leshamnuta leshvach, haveh leih kenoten ta'am leshvach ve'asur. The sharpness of the chiltit rejuvenates the meat, like onions. When you cut it, even though the taste is defective, machlya leshvach: it brings the taste back to its strength. So there is a defective taste, but not with sharp items. There's a big discussion about cutting onions or garlic with a meat knife and using them for whatever—mujadara, or different types of things, lemons and so on. Maran brings this down in Yoreh De'ah.
Avdeih deRabbi Levi, the servant, an eved Kena'ani of the chacham Levi, haveh ka mezabin chiltita: he was selling chiltit. Good business. Ki nach nafsheih deRabbi Levi, when Rabbi Levi died, they came before Rabbi Yochanan. They asked, “Can we still buy from him?” Rabbi Levi died, so maybe his eved loses his ne'emanut. Amru leih, “Mahou lemizban mineih?” Can we still buy the chiltit? Amar lehu, “Avdo shel chaver harei hu kechaver.”
Listen. Even though an am ha'aretz isn't suspected of everything—he's only suspected of what the Gemara says he's suspected of, such as ma'asrot—an eved is worse than an am ha'aretz, because they're parutz. Therefore, they wanted to know. If it were just an am ha'aretz, we wouldn't have a question. An am ha'aretz isn't suspected regarding kashrut; he's suspected regarding what he's suspected of, ma'aser, but not everything. An eved is worse. The Gemara says he's an eved of a chaver, and for this you can trust him to continue Rabbi Levi's ways.
Why were we asking? An am ha'aretz isn't suspected of certain things. My point is that the Gemara had this question about an eved; it wouldn't have had a question about an am ha'aretz. You'd certainly be able to buy from an am ha'aretz, because the Gemara tells us he's not suspected of certain things. The eved is worse than an am ha'aretz, so you need eved chaver kechaver to make this okay. And specifically with this item, we see that he was careful, so he has his status. Correct: where you see he learned, where you see he learned. Obviously Rabbi Levi taught him the rules, so he was careful at least about that.
Rav Huna bar Minyomi, another man, his wife zavin techeilta me'inshei deveiteih deRav Amram Chasida. He bought techelet for tzitzit (ritual fringes) from the wife of Rav Amram Chasida. She must have known how to sell it. Remember, kala ilan is the fake item. So she trusted him. Ata lekameih deRav Yosef. He asked, “Rabbi, can we trust it now? I bought it from the wife of Rav Amram Chasida.” Lo havah veyadeih. He said, “I don't know.”
Rav Yosef met Chanan Chayata, Chanan the tailor, a talmid chacham who was sitting down. Amar leih, “Yosef Anya, mena lach?” He called him Yosef the poor man because he was blind. “Where are you going to learn this din from? How are you supposed to know this din?” He answered, “I'll tell you where I know it from. I have a tradition. Ha tanya, achoheih deRav Chiyya bar Abba, va'atai lekameih deRav Matna”—I came before Rav Matna and asked him, “Can I use this techelet?” Lo havah veyadeih; he didn't know the answer. Ataei lekameih deRav Yehudah me-Agronya. Amar li, “Nafalta leyad”—you fell right into my hands; you need me. Hachi amar Shmuel, kanireh there was some sort of thing between them, hachi amar Shmuel: eshet chaver harei hu kechaver. Therefore, the wife of a chaver is like a chaver. You don't have to be concerned; she learned it from her husband. Her husband must have given her a good chinuch.
The husband wasn't around. Where do you see that from? Because those are the things they were careful about. Yes, and in the things we see they were careful about when the rabbi was alive, she must have learned from him. I mean, I don't have proof either way. It could be a specific item where we see they were careful when they were alive, and therefore eshet chaver kechaver applies to that. I don't see proof either way from this Gemara. I do see for sure that whatever they were careful about, they remain careful about. We learned in the Gemara that you have to stand up for an eshet chaver. We said you have to stand up for the wife of a talmid chacham.
De-tanu rabbanan: eshet chaver, harei hi kechaver; avdo shel chaver harei hu kechaver. Chaver shemet: this is a big question. When a chaver dies, ishto uvanav uvnei veito harei hen bechezkatan. The wife and children remain in the presumption they had, and they're ne'emanim until sheyechashedu, until they're no longer trusted. Vechen chevel shemochrin bitchelet: a certain place where they sell techelet had a good reputation, harei bechezkatan. I guess you're not worried that they're going to sell kala ilan until you see somebody get gypped.
Tanu Rabbanan. We learn this in the Tosefta in Demai. Eshet am ha'aretz sheniset lechaver—either she was widowed or divorced and then married a chaver. Vechen bito shel am ha'aretz, the same with the daughter of an am ha'aretz who married a chaver. Avdo shel am ha'aretz shenimkar lechaver, a servant of an am ha'aretz who was sold to a chaver. Bottom line, they're going from am ha'aretz-ville to chaver-ville. Kulam tzrichim lekabel divrei chavrut: they all have to accept upon themselves to live a life of chavrut, to eat betohorah and give ma'asrot. They can't just say, “Oh, I'm married to a chaver; eshet chaver kechaver.” One minute: you were married to an am ha'aretz. Therefore, you have to accept upon yourself this new life. You can't just say, “I married a chacham, so I'm automatically an eshet chaver now.”
How do you accept it? I guess you have to go before three rabbis and have them certify you. How does this kabalah happen? But you have to accept it upon yourself.
Aval eshet chaver, the wife of a chaver who was already established, sheniset le'am ha'aretz—look at Rashi. What does that mean, sheniset le'am ha'aretz? Does it mean she married an am ha'aretz? It sounds like, simply, she married an am ha'aretz, so she's downgrading herself. Aval eshet chaver sheniset le'am ha'aretz, vechen bito shel chaver sheniset le'am ha'aretz, vechen avdo shel chaver shenimkar le'am ha'aretz, einam tzrichim lekabel divrei chavrut lechatchilah. They don't have to re-accept chavrut. We trust them to continue? What does that mean—afterward, while they're married to an am ha'aretz, or when they remarry a talmid chacham?
When they remarry? Oh, they re-engage with a chaver. Where did you see that? Very good. I didn't initially learn this Gemara that way. I learned it kiphshuto: they married an am ha'aretz, and she was a talmid chacham's wife the whole time. You don't have to re-accept; they married a talmid chacham, so they retain their status, their chazakah. But he's saying that the Gemara is talking about where she married a chacham after that. Now the question is whether she has to recertify because she was married to an am ha'aretz in between.
Right, it says it in the... What does it say? The koteret Rashi; that's what I was looking for. I don't see Rashi. You don't see it, right? Einan tzrichin lekabel im chazru tachat yad chaver. You don't see it? It's somewhere here. Hold on. It says it's in the koteret Rashi, the second-to-last line. Where is the koteret Rashi? I have Mishnat Rishonim; I have Hagahot VeTziyunim. Do you have the koteret Rashi? Read it. Einam tzrichin lekabel im chazru tachat yad chaver. Ah, im chazru tachat yad chaver. Very good. That's very poignant. I think Tosafot argues, but that's the way Rashi learns.
Rabbi Yehudah says, af hem tzrichim lekabel divrei chavrut lechatchilah. No, they have to be recertified. Vechen hayah Rabbi Shimon ben Elazar omer: ma'aseh be'ishah achat sheniset lechaver vehaytah kosheret lo tefillin (phylacteries) al yado. That's according to the view that she was a regular woman, married a chaver, and then became a great woman; she got upgraded. She used to put on the tefillin for her husband every day. It's a big question: could she do that? She's not obligated in tefillin. Al yado—so he has it. Where do you want to put the tefillin? On the hand. She put it on for him.
She's not completely exempt from tefillin, let's say, as a mitzvat aseh shehazman grama (time-bound positive commandment). She still has a connection to the mitzvah. If a woman wants to put on tefillin, like those—I don't want to say—they could put them on. Technically, a woman can put on tefillin, because she's not completely excluded from the mitzvah, so it doesn't really matter. Beruryah. Or you could say the mitzvah is the box; she puts on the straps. Or you could say the mitzvah isn't putting them on; the mitzvah is having them on. Therefore, having them on—
That's what I also said. You can't bring a re'ayah that she is peturah: then why did she do it? Because the mitzvah isn't to put it on; the mitzvah is to have it on. If somebody puts it on for me, I am yotze (fulfills the obligation), because it's on me. Then it should be there. What's the likshor? That's what I said; it's a re'ayah. The hanachah means it should be placed, so it is placed. So you can't bring a re'ayah. Even if a woman is peturah from tefillin, she's okay to do this procedure, provided they're in place. Chazak uvaruch, as long as they're in place. There you go; that's what the Rav wants to say. The hanachah means they should be placed. The mitzvah is every second you're wearing the tefillin, you get a mitzvah. So she put them on; no problem.
She was a chaver. Here we have to explain that she knew what she was doing. They're trying to show you that she was a good woman. She'elah tovah. That would be the nafka mina. If you learn that the goal is just to get them on, and you have an aid... nis'et lemoches. Then what happened? She left the chacham; maybe he died or they got divorced, and then she ended up marrying the tax collector. Samech-Mem. Vehayetah kosheret lo kishrei moches. Instead of putting tefillin on, she put the tax receipts on his arm every day, like she was used to. Basically, the tax collector gives the man a receipt to show he's already paid the tax, like a conductor walking around with tickets. She would give him the tickets every day.
So what do you see from here? Stam moches is a gazlan. She was assisting him in his gazlanut. Therefore, she loses her chezkat kashrut, you see. She was married to a chaver, and you said she doesn't have to recertify once she marries an am ha'aretz. But you see, once she marries an am ha'aretz, she has already gone off the derech. The husband influences the wife. But she was still tying it on the same place, maybe? She was tying tax-collecting receipts, helping him. The point is that she was assisting her husband in being a gazlan. “Honey, please get me my false receipts so I can extort money from the public.” She was giving him these receipts. They're trying to show you that she becomes like him. So why did you think she doesn't have to be recertified? Once she marries an am ha'aretz, she gets drawn after the husband.
Then she says, “Keshem moches.” David, at the bottom of Rashi: keshem moches, chotamot venotnei hameches kedei shelo yitbe'uhu chaverav umeshalemet pa'am acheret. Right, tax receipt.
Amar Rav, Chabi"t asur bechotam (seal) echad. Chabi"t is prohibited with one seal; you need two seals. Chamfa"g, or chamfa"g, is permitted with one seal. What is Chabi"t? Chabi"t is chalav (milk), basar (meat), yayin (wine), techelet for tzitzit. The milk or meat that you want from the goyim, when it goes into their hands, the wine, and the techelet—basically, you're sending these kosher items with a goy courier. They're prohibited with one seal. Why? These items are expensive, and we worry they're going to undo the seal to switch them. Two seals are too much of a hassle.
Rashi says, asurim bechotam echad: when it's sent by an oved kochavim, since the meat and techelet are expensive, he takes the trouble to forge the seal and switch them; regarding the wine, to pour it as a libation, and regarding the milk, to improve it. What does he want the milk for? That's a question. But we know that with wine, he wants to use it as a libation. Didn't he say this already? With wine, the wine has to have two seals. So we're saying that these two items, when you're sending them with a goy, need two seals—double-wrapped.
The Gemara says chamfag, chiltit, muryas, pat (bread), and gevinah (cheese) are permitted with one seal. Why? These aren't such expensive items, so it's not worth his effort to undo a seal.
The Gemara asks: Pat, lemai nichush lah? Why would I think you need more seals for bread? Ei mishum achlufe, you'll know right away. Ki dideih chamimei chami: he switched your hot loaf of bread with a cold loaf. Dechitevei bides'arei: wheat with barley. You took the wheat and he put in barley; you'll know right away. Nami beyad'a. If he puts the same bread in, keivan de'ika chotam echad lo tarach umezayef: with one seal, he won't go to the trouble of forging it. There's no gain in taking the same bread and undoing the seal. He's going to take a hot loaf of wheat and put in another hot loaf of wheat; there's not enough gain for all that effort.
The Gemara asks: VeRav, mai shena gevinah delo tarach umezayef? Cheese was on the list of things requiring one seal because it's not expensive enough to switch. So chalav nami delo tarach umezayef. Why is milk on the other list? Milk and cheese should go together. Amar Rav Kahana: afik chalav, take milk off the list requiring two seals, ve'ayeil chatichat dag she'ein bah siman. Put in a piece of fish without a sign. That's expensive, so he'll switch it. The Gemara says, “Hainu basar”—that's meat. The piece of fish is already included under basar. “Excuse me: trei gavnei basar.” Incidentally, that's a whole discussion during the Nine Days. Can you eat fish because it's called basar? By camera it's okay, but not for se'udah hamafseket.
So you need two seals for wine, fish, and meat. Didn't we say that somewhere one seal was enough? Didn't we answer that? We did. If you send it with somebody, you cannot—he did say that. Remind me. I remember that shitah. Now that you brought it up, let's go. What's the answer? First, what's the question? Over here we're saying you need two seals, and over there you need one. The answer was that over there, when one seal is enough, you're not sending it with a shaluach, so the person on the other end knows it has only one seal. Here you're sending it with a shaliach, and the recipient won't know, so you need two seals.
There's a note here. What does the note say? The Gemara on daf 31 debated how many seals are necessary to ensure the integrity of kosher wine. Our authorities seem to rule that one is sufficient. To resolve the contradiction, Tosafot there cites Rabbeinu Tam, who distinguishes between an idolater and a dishonest Jew. Ah, the Gemara there refers to an idolater, for whom a single seal is sufficient. The Gemara here refers to a dishonest Jew. Wow. That's a big chiddush. A Jew is worse? Because he's confident they won't suspect him, so he can get away with it. He's a Jewish guy, and they trust him more. Wow. Still can't—there was no seal on that one; that's why. Taste a sample first. To'ameha. For quality control.
The Gemara says, amar Rav Kahana, hainu basar, trei gavnei basar. Shemuel omer, be'at asur bechotam echad. So he takes out the ch. We had Chabi"t; he says no, bayit, bayit. Machag muttar bechotam echad. What's the three things? Bayit: basar, yayin, techelet. They're prohibited with one seal because these are expensive items. The other items are machag: muryas, chiltit, and gevinah. One seal is enough, and he took away pat. Shemuel, as we just said, says chatichat dag she'ein bah siman hainu basar. He puts basar there as one category; he doesn't say shtei chatichot basar. Trei gavnei basar lo amrinan. So basar behemah and basar dag are two different items? And therefore, why don't we say basar includes both? He said it. He said that basar includes both; you don't have to say basar dag, or say trei minei basar. So it's a machloket? Yes, it's a machloket whether basar includes the two or whether you have to say it explicitly.
Lema'aseh, what's the siman? Shemuel lo palig ad'Rav. Lo tzerich, ela kasavar lo tzarich. That's true, with the siman. How do you want to make the siman? You want to put it in there or not?
Tanu Rabbanan, ein lokchin yamach, machag beSuriya. These are from Jewish merchants: lo yayin, velo muryas, velo chalav, velo melach salkondrit, velo chiltit, velo gevinah, ela min hamumcheh. You can buy them only from someone who is mumcheh in kashrut. In Syria, the Jews who are particular aren't particular about lifnei iver (placing a stumbling block). Even if a man is kosher in his home, he might sell you things he bought from goyim. He may sell you chiltit he bought from a goy, and therefore it was cut with the goy's knife. You have to be careful. If you go to their house, you can eat there because they're careful at home. Vechulam im nitar'ach etzel ba'al habayit muttar. You might think they're careful in their house, but business is business, and Moses is Moses. In the house they're kosher, so you can eat there. But in their business, they might have bought things from goyim. If you're buying muryas, where did he get it? From a goy. Or he put wine in the muryas. The milk could be chalav stam (unattended non-Jewish milk). Melach salkondrit—we'll see what that is.
Mesayei leh leRabbi Yehoshua ben Levi, de'amar Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi: shigar lo ba'al habayit leveito muttar. If the homeowner sent a gift to your house, it's permitted. Mai ta'ama? Ba'al habayit lo shevik heteira ve'achil issura. The homeowner won't leave permitted food and eat prohibited food. He can eat the permitted food, so why would he eat prohibited food? Ki meshager leh mai de'achil meshager: when he sends it to you, he's sending what he eats. Basically, he's sending you his own food, not something from the store. But if you go to the store, you have to be more concerned.
You said mumcheh, so is a mumcheh okay? Rambam. The store, not just a regular person. You were offended there, doctor? You were offended because they're picking on Syria? The Rambam says it's not only Syria; it's everywhere. I know they do it. I think it's only talking about Damascus, not Aleppo. He says it means Damascus, the capital, because they were wise guys there. In Chalab they were upstanding. Damascus is closer to Israel. Yes, closer to Israel, so you have to suspect them.
The Gemara says, “Syria, fine, we'll accept it.” Mai melach salkondrit? Amar Rav Yehuda amar Shemuel: melach shekol salkonderei Romi ochlim otah. All the Michelin chefs and bakers in Rome eat it. I guess they put things in it to give it flavor. What do they put in it, fish and stuff? Fat of non-kosher fish. Look at that. They put it in the salt. So now we have to be concerned about kosher salt. They're flavoring the salt with non-kosher fish. When they put the salt in, you think, “What could be in salt? What could be in salt?” Hinei, what could be in salt?
Tanu Rabbanan: melach salkundrit shechorah asurah. If it's black salt, forget about it. Levanah muteret, Rabbi Me'ir. White is okay. Rabbi Yehudah omer: levanah asurah; it's the opposite, u'shechorah muteret. You know who says both are prohibited? Rabbi Chanina ben Gamliel omer: zo vazo asurah. Amar Rav Yochanan: divrei ha'omer levanah asurah—why is white prohibited? Keravei dagim levanim teme'im me'oravin bah: they mix in the innards of white non-kosher fish. Vedivrei ha'omer shechorah asurah: keravei dagim shechorim teme'im me'oravin bah. They mix in the black innards. The one who says zo vazo asurah says, “Take your guess”: both are mixed in. So there you have it: black salt and white salt, which we have. Pink one's fine. Pink, you have to be concerned about other things.
Amar Rabbi Abbahu mishum Rabbi Chanina ben Gamliel... No, maybe each one is talking about his own place, each one talking about his own place and customers. Amar Rabbi Abbahu mishum Rav Chanina ben Gamliel: zaken echad hayah bishechunatenu. There was a fellow in our neighborhood shehayah machlik paneha beshuman chazir. Beauty. Yes, they used lard to make it shiny. That's right, to give it a nice glaze. That's what they do—all the tricks.
So what did we say here? In the Mishnah it said, harei elu asurin. All the items listed in the previous Mishnah are prohibited, but they're not prohibited for benefit. Leme'utei mai? What are you excluding? Harei elu implies something else, no? According to Chizkiyah, whom we learned above, leme'utei beyadu'a. If you know that they put wine in the kevashim, we learned according to Chizkiyah at the beginning of today's daf that it's prohibited for benefit. Rabbi Yochanan actually said kevashim are permitted because the wine is absorbed. So what is it coming to include? You have to say muryas according to Rabbi Me'ir. VeRabbi Yochanan leme'utei muryas: according to Rabbi Me'ir, if you put the wine in the muryas, it's prohibited. Why? Because you're actually eating it. Vegevinat beit Unyaki, which is even prohibited for benefit. Usetama keRabbi Me'ir: the setam Mishnah follows Rabbi Me'ir, who prohibits these things for benefit. Very good, straight up.
Look at Rashi: leme'utei beyadu'a. Rashi's dibur hamatchel... Aval kevashim shenatan letochan yayin vechometz. According to Chizkiyah, if wine was put in there, it's prohibited even for benefit. And according to Rabbi Me'ir, who said that was permitted... Ba leme'utei muryas, de'asur afilu behana'ah, vehacha setama keRabbi Me'ir. The Mishnah is Rabbi Me'ir. Okay.
Ve'elu mutarin ba'achilah: the following items are permitted even to eat if you bought them from a goy: chalav shechalavo goy veYisra'el ro'ehu. The Jew is watching it. You might have thought—no, we're talking about where the Jew didn't see everything; the Jew could only see him partially. The Jew can't see when he's sitting; he can see when he's standing, not when he's sitting. The man went to Rabbi Ben Eliyahu and said, “In Aleppo, we never had chalav Yisrael.” That's what they told Rabbi Ben Eliyahu. He said, “Okay, that's the law.” The man said, “My father went every morning and milked it himself with the goy.” He said, “That's chalav Yisrael.” He didn't know what chalav Yisrael was. With the cow? So he comes here and milks it in front of you. That's what the man was saying: “We never had chalav Yisrael. I went with my father every day and we milked the cow.” We saw the goy milking it. He thought chalav Yisrael was some religious item.
Vehadevash, honey, vehadevdavaniyot, clusters of grapes, af al pi shemenatefin—even though they're oozing juice—are you going to say, “Ah, it's wine”? No, ein bahem mishum hechsher (susceptibility to impurity) mashkeh (liquid). We don't say that the fruit became moistened with wine and therefore became susceptible to tumah (ritual impurity). Devash temarim, no? The reason is, why? Because exactly, his kavanah isn't for it to come out; as we learned, his intention is just to pick the grapes.
Why does it become mashkeh? What about the devash itself? Oh, wait. I thought it was saying the devash is permitted. Devash isn't honey? Is devash devash temarim, Rabbi? Devash temarim, yes. We're talking about a fruit; the juice that's oozing out is—right, exactly. We're concerned about the fruit, the date, and the grapes. Even though it's oozing and has juice on it, look at Rashi. But the date itself isn't machshir? Look at Rashi. It's one of the seven, no? No, look at Rashi. We have Rashi here? No. She'einah terufah, not yet. He says, hata'am she'einah mashkeh, shel otan anavim: clearly, that's one of the seven. Keivan da'anavim omdim la'achilah, he doesn't want the juice to come out.
According to the Rambam, it's talking about chalat devash. Oh, so it's a honeycomb. Correct. Honeycomb. Hata'am shehadevash, according to the Rambam, it is. Hata'am shehadevash hanozel min hachalah eino machshir: as long as the honey is in the comb, you don't want it to come out. Why does it have a... I'm sorry—as long as it's in the comb, it has the din of ochel; it doesn't have the din of mashkeh.
Our girsa says—uh-oh, so the Rambam is putting devash and the grapes together? Exactly. It's a hechsher item. Exactly. We just said honey you can eat stam. Right, we're treating it as a separate item. Separate item. When we say hadevash, devash is one item, vehadevdavaniyot, af al pi shemenatefin ein bahem... That's a din of mashkeh. Right. So how do we learn devash? Devash that you don't need hechsher from the—right, because what did they put in it? It's like a hechsher item. The problem is the vav: vehadev... Yes, vehadevdavaniyot, exactly. Do we have any indication? Rashi says vehadev; he has a vav inside it. “Clusters of grapes.” And the clusters of grapes. Does it mean the same item? It seems like both are hechsher items, but according to the way we're learning, no. Devash is devash. According to the Rambam, who says it's a hechsher item, you have to say devash means bee honey. Since it's still in the comb, we don't consider it hechsher.
What's the concern about hechsher here? Regarding tumah, you mean? It says contact with the goy. Therefore what? The rest are tamei, touched by a goy? For somebody who eats chullin betaharah, you mean? Someone with taharah, for sure. What's the problem with eating tamei grapes? “Tamei” wouldn't be the right word here. Huchshar letumah. Right, susceptible to tumah. You have to know that, maybe, regarding the laws of tumah vetaharah. A goy could give tumah to liquids, meaning a goy is a zav, right? So even if he touches it—and then it was huchshar and he touched it—what din would the grapes have? The grapes are tamei. Just saying, so what? Eat it; what do you get from tamei? Anyway, we're saying they're not even tamei because he doesn't have da'at, because whatever, it doesn't happen beratzon.
Wait, didn't parents explain that the devdavaniyot, the devash and the devdavaniyot, aren't about hechsher mashkeh? Kashrut! Even though you see juice on them, do we suspect the goy poured wine on them? That's why there's juice there? Aha. And therefore what, he worshiped it? No, it was yayin nesech (wine used for idolatry). Yayin stam. You're not suspecting that maybe he did some kind of avodah zarah (idolatry). Stam yeinam. Did I write that he says ein bahen mishum hechsher mashkeh? There was a—You didn't need that word... Yes, to change that girsa. Rabbi, change that girsa. He got rid of mishum hechsher mashkeh? Yes, because it's not hechsher.
Rabbi, there was an apple they were selling in the market that I knew about. They dipped it in grape juice and called it a Grapple. Wow. “Oh, you know, it's not kosher; you can't buy it.” They take the apple and soak it in grape juice. That sounds like a great item. Can we make it kosher? It fell out—even in a non-kosher Welch's Grapple. Welch's grape soda we used to have. I didn't think grape soda had no grapes in it. Right, because it was all purple; purple soda. That's this case. That's exactly this case. Well, it wasn't kosher for a while. But then there were no grapes in it; it was just chemicals.
If he's following the Ritva, he's not talking like the Rambam about the honeycomb. No, but this was wine. No, dates. This was wine. No, dates—we see juicy dates. Maybe also wine; they put things in it and infused it. Infused. That's the word today: infused. It's not running from a honeycomb.
Today I served decomposed dessert in the restaurant. What do you mean, decomposed? They're giving you the ingredients—deconstructed. What do you mean, deconstructed? Now I'm out for dinner and I want dessert, and now I have to get deconstructed? It's soter al menat livnot (destroying in order to rebuild). They're giving you the pieces, then they put it together in front of you and pour this on that, put that on it. It's an activity. What is it? It's an activity, okay. What does the... Charge you more. It's deconstructed, so we have to construct it! You figure that? What do you want? It's creativity. You went out to pay for the experience. You see three items that don't go together; abracadabra, all of a sudden it turns into an item. Deconstructed. So if a talmid chacham goes out to dinner, that's how he sees things: a scam! You have to pay more because it's deconstructed? How did that happen? Leave it for the Jews. Disassembled, assembly required. The bicycle: assembly required.
Uchvashim she'ein darkan latet letochan yayin vechometz. We learned that already. Kevashim where it's not the practice to put wine and vinegar in them are permitted for benefit. Ba'achilah—it sounds like they're permitted to eat, too. I guess if it's not the practice, you don't have to be concerned. But above we said eating is prohibited. Isn't that a contradiction? Yes, that's the question the Ran asked. He says that above we said, kevashim shedarkan latet letochan yayin o chometz, are prohibited to eat. Although one could infer from that Mishnah that when it's not the practice, they're permitted, why does the Mishnah have to say it explicitly? The Mishnah above seemed to be teaching only that they're permitted for benefit. One might have thought that when it's not the practice, they're permitted for benefit, but eating is always prohibited. Ka mashma lan: no, when it's not the practice, they're completely permitted.
Vetarît: what's tarit? It's a type of fish. She'einah terufah: it's not mixed in, so you don't have to worry about other kinds of fish being mixed in. It's recognizable. Vetzir is what? Brine. Sheyesh bah dagah—remember what we said? It's a strange thing: when there's a non-kosher item in it, that proves it's kosher. Why, when they put non-kosher fish in it, does it show they didn't put wine in it? Could be non-kosher fish don't survive in non-kosher fish brine. That's right. The sign that it's kosher is the non-kosher fish in it.
Ve'aleh shel chiltit: the leaf of the chiltit, because they don't use their knives to cut it. Vezeitei geluska'ot hamegulgallin. What is that? Olives? It's like an olive cake in the press, a circular cake. They put them in round containers; they get heated and soften in their own oil. Hamegulgallin: they made them into cakes. I guess they soften, then they press them. There you go. Rabbi Yose omer, hashluchin assurim. We'll see that in the Gemara. What is that? A type of olive.
Chagavim. Grasshoppers. Chagavim haba'im min hassalulah assurim. Grasshoppers that come from the goy's basket are prohibited. Why? Because the goy puts wine on them. Min haheftek, but if they come from the warehouse, they're permitted. The goy doesn't put things on the produce from the warehouse, only when he puts it in the store. When it's in the store, he wants to give it a good smell and a good look, so he sprinkles it. Vechen litrumah (priestly gift). Why? You shouldn't buy fruit from a kohen when he's selling it in front of the... because maybe he put terumah in it from a kohen, I guess. You can't trust a kohen? But you can buy fruit when he's selling it from the otzar. The Gemara will say what type of kohen we're talking about. Obviously, he's suspected.
The Gemara says, tanina leha detanu rabbanan. What, kohanim zerizim? Kohanim are good people. Yoshev Yisrael betzad edro shel oved kochavim: a Jew can sit beside the flock of a goy while the goy milks, ve'oved kochavim cholev, and the goy can milk, umevi lo ve'eino choshesh. The Gemara asks: What do you mean? It's obvious if he's watching. Heichi damei? If there aren't any non-kosher animals in the flock, be'edro, it's obvious. Why shouldn't it be okay? What's the concern? Ve'ei de'ika davar tamei be'edro, amai? That means he doesn't necessarily see everything; he just sits in the field. Who says he sees the milking? If there's a non-kosher animal, the goy can switch it. Right, amai muttar?
Le'olam de'ika davar tamei: really, there is a non-kosher animal. What does his sitting there do? Vechi kachazei leih: when the Jew stands, he can see what's happening; vechi yativ lo chazei leih: when he's sitting, he can't see. Mah hu deteima, keivan dechad yativ lo chazei leih, nechush dilma maitei: maybe he'll bring camel's milk ume'arev, and mix it in. Ka mashma lan: keivan dechi ka'ei, if he stands, he'll see it; irtutei mirtat velo me'arev. You see mirtat—the goy is scared. The mashgiach is on location. If the mashgiach stands up, he'll catch him. So even when the mashgiach is sitting, you don't have to suspect the goy. There's mirtat.
What if he doesn't know, Rabbi? What do you mean he doesn't know? He's only mirtat if he knows. But if he doesn't know... The goy knows that non-kosher milk... It's a chamor, the goy? The goy doesn't—he's mixing it. It's not that he's selling it lechatchilah to be makhshil. No, the goy knows we don't want camel's milk. Maybe he doesn't know. What is he selling? Why would camel's milk... What is he selling, Isaac? You know when a Jew goes to markets? Everybody knows you only buy—every goy knows camel's milk is cheaper than regular milk. He's trying to make money. He's selling it as cow's milk. Bottom line, he labels it as cow's milk.
By the way, I found out another day that milk from... This is very healthy. Really? Yes, online, on Facebook and... It's healthy? It has health benefits, I'm sure. But you see, that's not the reason it's prohibited. It's prohibited because Hashem said. There was a company that... But Rabbi, the government says you can't mix—Yeah, he extended this mirtat. The sitting compared to standing. Rabbi, if there's no... Look at note 28. The Gra says, davka be'ofen zeh hagoy yare le'arev chalav tamei shema Yisrael yir'ehu, aval im hagoy eino yodei'a zot yesh la'amod alav kol zman hachalivah lefi she'eino yare. Eino yare or eino yodei'a? Eino yare, because eino yodei'a. Right, that makes sense. I can hear the other way, too.
I can hear that the goy is selling it as what? If he's selling it as camel's milk, then there's no concern anyway; you know what it is. He's selling it as milk. So bottom line, he's scared he'll get caught mislabeling it, misrepresenting it. Forget about kashrut. Maybe a guy has an allergy; it'll kill him. He doesn't care about kashrut. It's like the guys in restaurants who put bread in tuna fish to fill it up so it's cheaper. You come along and ask, “Is there any bread in the tuna fish?” “No, no, we don't do that.” “I have an allergy to bread. If I have a dot of bread, I'll die.” “Oh, don't eat it, don't eat it.” What happened? Sugar jumps up. What happened? They lie to you and say they don't put it in until you tell them you have an allergy. Every bagel store. Because they save money.
It's the same thing here: the guy's trying to save a buck. Although the Gra miVilna doesn't say it. The Gra miVilna says like Moshe. Shulchan Aruch actually says like Moshe: davka im hagoy yodea shechalav asur.
Now, the Gemara said, ei deleika devarim teme'im beinei'hu, peshita! Where would he get the stuff from? It sounds like the Jew is still sitting in the field, but there's another issue of gilui issues, snakes. Maybe the goy will leave it uncovered, and you have to worry about gilui. He also has a concern that the goy will go to another farm and get milk.
The Mordechai says that since the Gemara asked only the obvious question—chalav is permitted if there are no other animals there—and didn't ask anything more, it sounds like the Jew is still sitting there. It seems that even when all the goy's animals are kosher, the Jew has to sit beside the flock. Otherwise, the goy could go take milk from another place. He also quotes Rabbeinu Peretz, who says one should be stringent and have the Jew there from the beginning of the milking, in case the goy mixes in non-kosher milk first. You have to be there from beginning to end.
Well, so this is it. Chalav shechalavo goy is a big, big, big story. So everybody should accept upon themselves right now chalav Yisrael, no more chalav stam. You're learning here—you're learning it over here. That's it. Even Rav Moshe was only matir; he wasn't matir it with such a strong fist. He said bnei Torah should be machmir. He wrote it fifty years ago, and Chacham Ovadia argued on the teshuvah. Rav Moshe was trying to help the people, no question about it, which is great. So why should we take these kulot, rabotai?
M&M's. Ah, Hershey's. You're right: Hershey's, M&M's, Entenmann's, all these things. But, rabotai... Carvel or whatever. Carvel! That's fine, we'll give you three items. Pick your three items; you can't change! You can't change! Drink chalav mamash. He said pick your three items; you can't change. That's it: M&M's, Milky Way, and Carvel. Three Musketeers, that's it. The best one was Three Musketeers. That was the best bar.
The truth is, without that heter, there might be a lot more chalav Yisrael because there'd be an incentive to do it. Most Jews who follow the heter mean there's no incentive for those guys to—Right, for sure. But still, Hershey's isn't going to change. It depends if it makes financial sense. If they figure out a way to make the big dairies chalav Yisrael easily, you know what I'm saying? Then they'll—They'll never want to put chalav Yisrael on it; they won't publicize it. No, I'm saying Hershey will never go chalav Yisrael. It's a culture. It's an American staple. You'll have fewer people eating— I don't care if the whole world went chalav Yisrael. You're saying the hashgachah wouldn't give it to them? No, no, the hashgachah would, definitely. I don't think Hershey, as a business, would start using chalav Yisrael. It's not their culture. What would they do that for, to please Jews? It's a culture.
You'll have a lot fewer items that are kosher, bottom line. I don't argue with money; of course it's all business. But I think some companies, as American companies, aren't going to do chalav Yisrael. They're not changing it. That's the way Milton Hershey did it, that's the way we're doing it. He didn't do it this way; it's a traditional item, Hershey's. There's half a million Jews who keep kosher in America. That's nothing for them. Hershey's is a world product. It's such a chen that the companies are kosher in the first place. It's not worth it for them. Big zero!
It's such a chen... We don't know what we have here. Ah, you're saying it's not even business sense; it's not worth it for them. It's such a chen. Open up to a whole market: Jewish people eat. Dude, how would we have half a million Jews who keep kosher? Six million Jews in America; 10% keep kosher. Yeah, but they have to know it's a cost for them. They have to pay now; they have to change things. What, they don't sell to a city that has fewer than 500,000 people? It's such a chen that 90% of grocery items are kosher. It's a chiddush, and it brings the cost of being Jewish much lower.
What did OU do? OU has a chen. OU has a chen. All of kashrus. Absolutely. I understand a kosher restaurant, but kosher products mean you're going into their factory. It's invasive. Bring in a black-hat mashgiach to watch the production—can't do that, can't do... Now how many? We used any color we wanted—tomato—and now we're going to start using beetle juice colors? That was disgusting anyway. In Jewish establishments, I believe you can say that. If everybody says they want bishul Yisrael Sefaradi (Sephardic Jewish cooking), Jewish restaurants will accommodate them because they're selling to Jews. They're in the zone already; they're selling to Jews, so you can use that market.
Now, out of the half—The goy has 100 billion people worldwide that he's selling to. You tell him there's a market in New York. A little more money you can make, but you need a mashgiach on your head. You can't use this anymore; you have to change that. It takes good convincing. Out of the half a million kosher Jews, maybe 10% want bishul Yisrael Sefaradi: 50,000 in all of America. That's a question, a good question. I believe it takes some convincing, unless it's crazy profitable.
If you give the rabbis, the OU, access to the cameras, that could be chalav Yisrael. He thinks that's very easy. They have to make it easy for them, for sure. That's what I'm saying: OU has a good way of convincing them. “We'll make it easy; don't worry about it. We won't change your business at all, just give us access to the cameras.” Exactly. OU must be saying it that way, because 500,000—Absolutely. Cities with 500,000 people don't sell that much. 500,000 people in the whole country of 320 million! No, they don't want it. It's such a chen.
We have such a berachah. Go to Europe. What do you mean? You can't even have a Kit Kat in Europe. In Europe, they don't think like that. Nothing! Mexico, nothing! Kids want candy? “No, I'm sorry, you can't have this candy.” Nothing has a hechsher in these countries. Why is there kashrus? There's such a chen here. OU has a lot to do with it. OU knows what they're doing. They're professional people; they know how to get in there and talk to the guys. OU knows what they're doing. It's a chen.
You're making a point. In Europe, you don't have anything kosher. They have a smaller population, but they have hundreds, a couple hundred thousand Jews in Paris, in Europe, no? Kosher Jews in Europe? They have kosher restaurants in Europe. They have more kosher restaurants in Paris than Brooklyn, maybe. Why don't you have it over there? Because over there, they're not interested. “Leave us with our little money; we're not interested in your money. Keep your Jewish money.” Hashem doesn't want the chen, this kind of chen in Europe like He does in America. There's a certain chen that we have: 90% of grocery items are kosher. I hear what you're saying. It's a chiddush.
Beech-Nut just decided, “It's a little bit too hard. We're not going to do kosher baby food anymore.” You see that? They took it away. That's a big problem. If companies start a domino effect like that, we're going to be in trouble. Our kosher-keeping Jews are going to keep being in trouble. We have to go back to making everything at home, natural stuff, and so on. They have fewer kosher people eating. Interesting.
Then you have some people who say industrial kashrut isn't reliable anyway; the whole thing is that you need a haimishe guy. And that for sure won't happen. Hershey's isn't going to let some guy from Williamsburg, a chasidishe guy with a beard or whatever, walk into Hershey factories and look at its milk. Ain't going to happen. Certain companies are above money. It's not that they aren't thinking about it; it's that a couple Jews won't make a difference. Hershey's is a staple, like Coke. They can't change their recipe, right? Now they're changing back to sugar. Okay, that's sugar, that's politics with the government, but they're not changing a recipe for the Jews.
Even though they make runs—they make one—so that's a chiddush, that the OU can convince Coca-Cola. What do you think it affects their stock? Does it bring them anything? It doesn't affect anything for Coca-Cola for a week. One week a year. How many Jews are buying quarts of—Only Ashkenazim need it. How many vegans? They put the vegan thing on it. How many things...? Yeah, vegan is strong. I think that's a trend; they're trying to show that they're part of that movement, almost like a shevach. That's different. I think that's monetary. They're trying to show they're part of the movement.
But corn syrup for one week? How many Coca-Colas are they selling? Moishe sells 4,000; Coca-Cola sells four billion Coca-Colas a day. Do they care about Moishe's case, the special corn syrup run? I'm just saying, to the OU's credit, they have some kind of hand in convincing them to do these things. That's crazy. Why would they do that? Make a special run with the yellow cap. No goy is buying the yellow cap. No, it's a thing. Just to put the yellow cap on? What's on us now? They go out and buy the yellow cap because we want the sugar. We have to stamp it. That's a headache, and they get calls to customer service to answer all these questions every—“This guy from Boro Park harassing us all day long, six weeks before Pesach: ‘Is it kosher? Is this kosher?’” Right. You're ruining our own business. We have to deal with all the questions that come from it.
But I think a lot of it has to do with the OU. What can you say? They're a real big company and figured out how to get in. A small company, I think, would be affected by profit—not a company like Twizzlers, but a small company that you can tell, “Listen, we're going to get you 500,000 more customers.” Yes, that would affect them. I think their machine can fill 1,200 a minute. 1,200 a minute? A minute. With Coca-Cola? Yeah. I can fill 15,000 in an eight-hour shift. Eight hours? Take coffee and then coffee? Wow. On a filling machine. That's faster than you can see.
But your cucumber soap isn't kosher for Pesach (Passover). Your cucumber soap? Mine is. What, kosher for Pesach? Of course. Do you get any phone calls? Wait, is it shemitah (Sabbatical year)? Wait, shemitat kesafim? Shemitah? We have a kosher-for-Pesach list! You're on the list? Yeah. No, they call. You know how many Chasidim call? You're right, you're not joking. You have a list of which products are kosher for Pesach? Kosher for Pesach. But the barley soap? The barley scrub? The wheat scrub? It's all chemicals, come on. But you're still selling that whitening cream? Yeah. That's racist! What are you going to do? Deal with those people over there. Whitening cream, what are you going to do? They sued—They're the only ones who buy it; they have no claims against it. In the world, yeah.
One more line, boys. Devash. The Gemara said, “Devash, devash lemai neichush lei?” What are you worried about with honey? If we're learning it as honey, it sounds like it's an issue with the item. Ei mishum deeruvei ramu beh: they'll put something in it; maybe they'll put yayin nesech in it. Masrach sari: it will ruin the honey. You'll destroy it, so you're not going to do that. Ei mishum bishulei ovdei chochavim: they're cooking it. It's ne'echal kemoto shehu chai; if it's eaten raw, there's no problem. Ei mishum giulei ovdei chochavim: they cooked it in a pot. Ta'amo lifgam mutar. The stam pot is not used within 24 hours, so what are you worried about? That's why it's permitted. There's nothing to worry about. All the concerns we just mentioned are non-starters.
Vehaduvdevaniyot. Af al pi shemenatefot, even though wine is dripping, ein bahen mishum hechsher mashkeh. Ureminhi, we have a kashya. Habotzer lagat: a guy is harvesting grapes in order to put them into the press. When they do that, they start to squeeze them a little, and the grape juice starts to fall on them. Shammai omer, huchsher, huchsher. Why? Because his intention is already to squeeze them, so he's happy about the juice that comes out initially. VeHillel omer, lo huchsher. Why? Initially, he puts them in baskets, and the baskets have holes. And when keneset? And so they're—vehodu Hillel le-Shammai. Oh! But the question is, maybe if he puts them in baskets without holes, you have to consider that he wants the juice. Look at Rashi. David, read Rashi for us.
Habotzer lagat, lidroch begat vela'asot mehen yayin. Huchsher. This is about tumah: the liquid is considered to have been desired, since afterwards they're going to press the grapes and he wants what comes out of them. Right. Vehaduvdevaniyot atzman hen le'achilah. The grapes themselves are for eating.
The Gemara is saying that if Hillel agrees with Shammai, everyone holds that whatever comes out of the grapes makes them susceptible. So what's the explanation? The Gemara answers: it's all a matter of tumah. Hatam ka ba'ei leih lemashkeh. Over there, when you're bringing them to the press, you want the juice. Therefore, even if you put them in open baskets, you might put them in closed baskets, so Hillel agreed. But here, lo ka ba'ei leih lemashkeh. As Rashi said, here they're eating the grapes; I don't want the juice. So the juice isn't desired, and therefore it doesn't make them susceptible.