So we are learning Siman Shin-Yud-Chet, se’if Tet (section 318, paragraph 9), Halachah Tet (law nine). Okay, rabotai (my teachers), Saul, are you reading? I’ll follow with you. Bevakashah (please), Siman Shin-Yud-Chet, se’if Tet. “Kli rishon (first vessel): perusho hakli shehishtamesh bo al ha’esh, afilu le’achar shehe’eviruhu me’al ha’esh, mevashel kol zman shehayad soledet bo.”
Okay, so we saw yesterday that it has to be yad soledet bo (hand recoils from it); that is enough. “Asur latet letocho tavlin (spice)” (it is forbidden to put spice into it). So you cannot put tavlin into a kli rishon (first vessel). Aval (but), you may put salt into it, assuming the salt is raw. Maran says you are allowed to put salt into a kli rishon, even though it is yad soledet bo, even though a kli rishon cooks. Why? Keivan shehe’eviru me’al ha’esh (since they took it off the fire). You cannot put the salt in while the pot is on the fire. That can be a problem.
However, what is the reason it is okay? “Detzarich bishul (cooking) rav kevisra detora” (like the meat of an ox). Kevisra detora—that is the chidush (novel point). The halachah says here, “She-tzarich melach bishul rav kevisra detora”: salt requires cooking like the cooking of the ox. Does she? The Mishnah Berurah says, “Kevisra detora.” Even though you see it dissolve in a kli sheni (second vessel), dissolving is not bishul. Dissolving has nothing to do with bishul. Dissolving is one thing, and bishul is something else. You can even see it dissolve in cold water. Right, it could dissolve even in cold water. “Ad kan leshono” (thus far his words). So they are telling you a big chidush here.
Then he says, “Veyes” (“And there is one who”). “Veyes mi she’oser latet letoch kli zeh basar malu’ach, afilu huchlaf hatzli.” Okay, that is about salt. “Hineh bedin melach ne’emru bo shtei de’ot”: two opinions were stated about the law of salt. The opinion of the Rif and the Rambam, which is Maran’s opinion, is that salt is kashei habishul, according to the lishna batra (the latter version) of the Gemara. Therefore, even in a kli rishon, it does not cook as long as it is not on the fire. By the way, the Me’iri holds that it does not cook even on the fire. Wow, that is how difficult salt is to cook. So it does not cook at all? It does not cook at all. I don’t know what you have to do, according to the Me’iri, to cook it.
The opinion of Tosafot is to prohibit putting salt into a kli sheni as long as it is yad soledet bo, and “vehamachmir tavo alav berachah (blessing)” (a blessing will come upon one who is stringent). Look at the Rema. What does the Rema say here? “Veyes osrim” (and there are those who prohibit). The Acharonim (later authorities)—next line: “Veyes osrim latet melach afilu bikli sheni kol zman shehayad soledet bo, vehamachmir tavo alav berachah.” So Chacham Rema says that there are those who prohibit putting salt even in a kli sheni as long as it is yad soledet bo, and a blessing will come upon one who is stringent.
The Mishnah Berurah says, “Veyes osrim.” Look at the Mishnah Berurah: “BaGemara, ika trei lishnei bazeh. Lishna batra hava melach lekula, kasheh lehitbashel kevisra detora.” That is one version in the Gemara. “Umishum hachi mutar afilu bikli rishon keshe’eviru meha’esh. Velishna kama hava melach le chumra (stringently), afilu bikli sheni mitbashel. Ufasku rov haposkim (most halachic decisors) kelishna batra, ela mipnei sheyesh machmirim, lachen katav vehamachmir tavo alav berachah.”
Go slowly here. Rov haposkim hold—what do they posek (rule halachically)? “Ufasku rov haposkim kelishna batra.” The batra is lekula (leniently). It is the second opinion, and it is lenient. Lishna kama, we said, holds that salt is a chumra (stringency): “De’afilu bikli sheni mitbashel.” Exactly. So now we have a machloket (dispute) between Maran and the Rema.
What type of salt are we talking about here? Look at the Mishnah Berurah: “Hainu bemelach shechofrim”—salt from the quarries. “Aval melach she’osim mimayim shemevashlim otam, ein bo mishum bishul lechulei alma, de’ein bishul achar bishul.” But there is a certain kind of salt that you get by cooking water. That is how you get the salt: you cook the water, and then you get the salt. Exactly. That salt is already cooked. Ein bishul achar bishul. Ein bishul achar bishul. So we are not talking about cooked salt; we are talking about raw salt. Raw salt, ya’ani, from the quarry, that has never been cooked before.
Okay, the Ran writes—now the commentators over—“Me’achar ve’ein anu beki’im mah hen kashei habishul.” We do not know what is considered kashei habishul. In this case, the Gemara says salt is kashei habishul, even “kevisra detora.” “Yesh lehachmir misafek, de-lo latet kol davar lekli rishon.” One should be stringent because of the doubt and not put just anything into a kli rishon. You are going to start saying, “Oh, this is like salt.” The Gemara said salt; the Gemara said what it said. Now you are going to come along and say, “Any item is kashei…” You should not take the law into your own hands, says the Ran, and say, “Oh, this item also takes a long time to cook.” Rather, you cannot put anything into a kli rishon.
“Vehinei meduyak midevarav delegabei kli sheni mutar latet kol davar milevad elu shetziyenu Chazal shehem kalei habishul (items that cook easily).” It comes out that, according to him, anything is permitted in a kli sheni except for the things Chazal identified as kalei habishul. kolyas ha-ispanin (a type of fish) and those items would be examples of kalei habishul.
“Vechol mah she’ein anu beki’im mityaches le-kashei habishul.” Aha, that means that when the Ran says, “Ein anu beki’im,” he is referring to kashei habishul. There are two types: kashei habishul and kalei habishul. Kashei habishul is a kula (leniency): I can cook it even in a kli rishon. Kalei habishul is a chumra: I cannot even put those items into a kli sheni. So the Ran says, “Ein anu beki’im be-kashei habishul.” That means that the Gemara’s statement about salt, according to one shitah (opinion), applies to salt. That is all; ad kan, salt. You cannot come along and say, “Oh, these other items are also kashei habishul.” Rather, we follow what the Gemara said.
But according to that, it sounds like the Gemara’s statement about kalei habishul applies only to what the Gemara said: kolyas ha-ispanin and this—and nothing else. Therefore, according to the Ran, one could be lenient and put other items into a kli sheni, except for what the Gemara said not to put there. He says, “Vezeh hefech divrei ha-Re’em.” Who is the Re’em? “Asher pasak kelishna kama bedin melach, desavira leh shehu mikalei habishul.”
Salt—why does the first shitah say you cannot put it into a kli rishon, or even a kli sheni? I’m sorry: the first lishna in the Gemara says that you cannot put salt even into a kli sheni. What does that opinion hold? It holds that salt is kalei habishul. So, obviously, it has to be kalei habishul. Therefore, why would you tell me that you cannot put it into a kli sheni?
“Ve’al pi zeh pasak lehachmir shelo latet kol davar bekli sheni she’ein anu beki’im mah hen kalei habishul.” So it comes out that it depends on which opinion you follow. If you posek that you are allowed to put salt into a kli rishon, then we say that this applies only to salt, but nothing else, because we are not baki (knowledgeable) enough to say what is kashei habishul, like salt. But regarding kalei habishul, we are baki: whatever the Gemara says. If you posek like the other shitah, which says you cannot put salt into a kli sheni, that opinion already holds that we have to be choshesh (be concerned) that many things are kalei habishul.
So the question is: “Ein anu beki’im be-kashei habishul,” or “Ein anu beki’im bekalei habishul”? It depends on how you posek in this salt case. He says, “Ve’al pi zeh pasak ha-Re’em lehachmir shelo latet kol davar bekli sheni.” Wow, kol davar—everything—because we are not baki about what is kalei habishul. “And thus Magen Avraham and other Acharonim explained his view, since they ruled like him. Mishnah Berurah Shin-Yud-Chet, se’if katan Mem-Dalet.”
Okay, open up Mem-Dalet in the Mishnah Berurah. What does Mem-Dalet in the Mishnah Berurah say? Mem-Dalet. Oh, it is going to be next to Mem-Dalet; it is not Mem-Dalet. You know, they are usually one off. Look at Mem-Bet: “Hosif bezeh din acher, mita’am desavira leh dede’ah zo deyesh devarim shemitbashlim afilu bekli sheni, mipnei shehem rakim, ve’ein anu beki’im.” Aha, he added a separate ruling, for the reason that this opinion holds that some things cook even in a kli sheni because they are soft, and we are not knowledgeable about them. “Hosif le’esor latet pat afui shehu rachich afilu bekli sheni, vehu hadin…”
Ah, so right there the Mishnah Berurah says there are items we are not baki about. It could be this bread: if you hold that yesh bishul achar afiyah, then I cannot put the bread into a kli sheni, because perhaps the bread is kalei habishul and will cook in a kli sheni. And “ein anu beki’im.” The Gemara never mentioned bread. The Gemara mentioned kolyas ha-ispanin and these fish items. But the Mishnah Berurah says, “Hey, you don’t know.”
Look at page 84 in Gary’s book. “Uldidan, ra’ui lanu lelech achar divrei haShulchan Aruch, she’ein machmirin ela bidvarim shenireh la’ayin, ba’ayin, shehem rakim umitbashlim gam bekli sheni, ve’ein lachush bechol… bechol davar shema mitbashel.” Oh, so he is saying that Sefaradim are not so stringent about kalei habishul unless the Gemara said so, or it is visible to the eye. You cannot just come along and say, “Oh, maybe,” when you do not actually see it cooking, and then be stringent.
So it comes out that we have a machloket. This is a machloket ad lashamayim regarding a kli sheni. We always come along and say, “Kli sheni eino mevashel, eino mevashel, eino mevashel.” Now, is anybody going to come along and say, “Yes, but you have to be choshesh: maybe it is kalei habishul, and if it is kalei habishul, it cooks”? The Re’em said that. The Re’em said, “Harei re’ayah”: you see, they are not going to put only salt in there. Why are we concerned that you cannot put salt in? Maybe salt is kalei habishul. But the Mishnah did not say salt. The Mishnah said kolyas ha-ispanin and the other item. There you see that there are more things besides what the Mishnah says. The Gemara said salt. Obviously, once you say the Mishnah is lav davka (not specifically), hu hadin (the same applies) to other items.
However, the Chazon Ish holds that even according to the Yere’im, one should not be stringent about everything, only bread. He says, “No, no, no.” The Mishnah Berurah brought bread; that is bread. However, it is clear that there is a view among the Acharonim that we are stringent about other things. “Mihu ledidan haSefaradim yesh lehakel badavar, sheharei da’at Maran ikar kehaRavyah.” That means, first of all, we hold ein bishul achar afiyah. Maran was posek, as we learned the other day, like the Ravyah. It was a yesh ve… It was a yesh veyesh. “Yesh veyesh halachah keyesh batra.” The yesh batra was “veyesh matirin,” or “yesh mekilin.” And whose opinion did we say that was? We saw in the Be’er HaGolah that it was the opinion of the Ravyah, who says ein bishul achar afiyah.
Therefore, ein bishul achar afiyah: Maran was matir (permits) then, even to put this bread into a kli rishon. If you tell me that, then regarding bread I do not have to be concerned. It is not a question of whether bread is kalei habishul, because bread is already cooked; it has nothing to do with the sugya (Talmudic discussion) of kalei habishul. If you hold that yesh bishul achar afiyah, then you can come along and say, “Oh, you are not allowed to put it even into a kli sheni, because it is kalei habishul.” But Maran obviously does not hold that way, because Maran holds ein bishul achar afiyah. So we have no re’ayah (proof) from there about what he holds regarding kalei habishul, because according to Maran, the bread is already baked.
“Ve’afilu nachmir ka-Re’em”—and even if you want to be stringent like the Re’em, who says this about salt—“zeh davka bemah shenizkar beShulchan Aruch bedin bishul achar afiyah, o kedi’avad u-setameih, uvishe’ar devarim pasak Maran kelishna batra bedin melach.” Exactly, regarding salt, Maran was also lenient. Maran, in the halachah we just read in Tet, clearly said you could take the salt and put it into a kli rishon. The Me’iri said it had to be off the fire.
“Ve’im ken ein makom le’esor kalei habishul bechol davar.” Exactly, you have no re’ayah from Maran that he prohibits kalei habishul. Let’s say it more clearly: there are two places from which you could make a rule that we are stringent about kalei habishul: the baking case and the salt case. In both cases, Maran came down on the other side of the argument. In the case of baking and cooking, Maran said ein bishul achar afiyah. Therefore, we have no re’ayah about kalei habishul from that sugya. The other case you could bring is salt. In the salt case, Maran says you can put salt even into a kli rishon. So we have no re’ayah regarding kalei habishul about what he holds in that matter. How do we know what Maran holds about kalei habishul? Maybe he holds just like the Gemara says? No! Exactly! That is what we are trying to say.
Or the other category was things you can see. If you see it get cooked, that is metzi’ut (reality); if you see it, you see it. There is no safek (doubt) there. He is saying it has to be visible to your eyes. The Ashkenazim are saying that even if you do not see it, we have to be choshesh: maybe it cooks. We are saying, “No, no, no, unless it is nireh ba’ayin,” like tea. Tea is very, very—what do you call it?—thin. Tea leaves are very, very thin. You put them into a kli sheni, and perhaps they have the ability to… Listen, the fact that they give the water color is no re’ayah that they are cooking. I am sure if you take a tea bag and put it in cold water for long enough, it will eventually give it some type of color as well.
Rather, the explanation is that they want to say the leaves themselves are very, very thin. Okay, but that is a chidush. By the way, not everybody says tea leaves. Not everybody says tea leaves, by the way. Chacham Ben Tzion permitted putting tea leaves into a kli sheni. Chacham Matlub said, “Ein, ein kalei habishul”—whatever the Gemara said—and therefore he was matir a kli sheni. So just the fish? Just kolyas ha-ispanin, and that is it here.
Now, “Katav haMordechai.” Okay, now we go further, rabotai. Oh, before—before Michael here? Michael is not here for a second. Open up Or LeTzion. You know Or LeTzion? Bring the Or LeTzion. Why couldn’t we put tea into a kli rishon off the fire? A kli rishon cooks. Tea is raw. Tea is raw.