The Eddie B. Sitt edition, an audio series of the Talmud Bavli, specifically Masechet Chullin, has been dedicated by our good friend Mr. Joey Jamal and his wife in honor of their son Jack's engagement to Shirley Sutton. May it be, with God’s help, that they marry at an auspicious and successful time and that the merit of the study we will engage in over the next several months in Masechet Chullin brings them much joy, peace in their home, prosperity, and all blessings. Amen. Today, we study Daf Lamed Daled, with the help of God, in memory of Avraham ben Ester and Moshe ben Noura. May their souls be bound in the bond of life. Amen. May Yaakov ben Yosef be successful.
We begin today’s Daf Lamed Daled, Amud Rishon. The Gemara begins: “Amar Ulla, Chavrayya Amrei, Bechullin Shena'asu Al Taharat Hakodesh Delo K'Rabbi Yehoshua.” This means the rabbis of the yeshiva learned the Mishnah, which states that if your hands are Yadayim Mesu'avot, meaning they are a Sheni, they cannot touch meat that has been Mukshar with the blood that was on it. The question arises: how can a Sheni make a Shelishi by Chullin? Chullin that has been treated with the sanctity of Kodesh is treated like Kodesh, and therefore Kodesh can become a Shelishi. Thus, the Mishnah is conveying that this is indeed the case. However, we learned in yesterday’s Daf that this view aligns only with Rabbi Elazar, not with Rabbi Yehoshua.
Ulla argues that the rabbis of the yeshiva want to learn the Mishnah not like Rabbi Yehoshua. However, I say differently: “Va'ana Amina, Rabbi Yehoshua Hi.” What does that imply? How can it be Rabbi Yehoshua? We previously learned that Rabbi Yehoshua stated that if one eats a Shelishi, he becomes a Shelishi regarding Kodesh. This means that if he consumes a Shelishi, he becomes a Shelishi regarding Kodesh, indicating that a Sheni regarding Kodesh makes a Shelishi. The Gemara questions how this is applicable. However, Chullin Shena'asu Al Taharat Terumah indicates that if he eats Chullin that was treated on the level of Terumah, then Terumah becomes a Shelishi, and consequently, he can also become a Shelishi.
The Gemara continues, stating that Terumah does exist, but Taharat Hakodesh does not. From this, we deduce that Rabbi Yehoshua holds that there is no such concept as Chullin Shena'asu Al Taharat Hakodesh. Ulla contests this, stating that Rabbi Yehoshua does not need to say that Chullin Shena'asu Al Taharat Hakodesh is stricter because even Chullin Shena'asu Al Taharat Terumah also has a Shelishi. This implies that if Chullin that has been treated with Kodesh is stricter than Terumah, then it follows that Chullin that has been treated with Kodesh can certainly elevate to the level of Kodesh, which is more severe.
Thus, Rabbi Yehoshua can indeed be aligned with our Mishnah. The question arises: who are these friends in the yeshiva? It is Rabba bar bar Chana, who states that Rabbi Yochanan said, “Mai Ahadrei Rabbi Eliezer veRabbi Yehoshua Lehadadi.” The Gemara now delves into a fascinating dialogue between Rabbi Eliezer and Rabbi Yehoshua. Rabbi Eliezer asserts that one is defined by what they eat: a Rishon makes a Rishon, a Sheni makes a Sheni, and a Shelishi makes a Shelishi. Rabbi Yehoshua counters that if one eats a Rishon and a Sheni, he becomes a Sheni. If he eats a Shelishi, he becomes a Sheni regarding Kodesh, but not a Sheni regarding Terumah.
We must understand these differing opinions. The Gemara presents a back-and-forth dialogue between Rabbi Yehoshua and Rabbi Eliezer, as transmitted by Rabba bar bar Chana in the name of Rabbi Yochanan. Rabbi Eliezer states that food is more stringent than the eater. Where do we see that food is more stringent than the eater? If a Tahor bird becomes a Nevelah outside, it does not impart Tumah unless one eats it. Only by consuming a Kezayit in the Beit Habli'ah does it become Metamei. However, the person who eats it becomes Tamei if they consume it.
Rabbi Eliezer concludes that since the eater is more stringent than the food itself, we cannot downgrade the eater’s status based on what they consume. Thus, if one eats a Rishon, they should become a Rishon, as the eater cannot be less than the food they consumed. Rabbi Yehoshua responds, “Minivlat Of Tahor Lo Gamrinan,” arguing that one cannot derive a proof from a Tahor bird that became a Nevelah, as this case is a Chiddush. Rabbi Yehoshua points out that foodstuff must meet a certain measure to receive Tumah. For food to become Tamei, it must be a Shiur of a Beitzah, while the eater must consume two Beitzim to become Tamei.
Thus, the foodstuff is stricter, and if the food is a Rishon, it does not make the eater a Sheni, as the food is more stringent than the eater. Rabbi Eliezer responds that Tumah derived from Shiurim does not apply to the levels of food, as the Shiurim are their own dynamic. The reason we use a Beitzah for food is that less than a Beitzah is not considered food. Therefore, we cannot use Shiurim to establish the laws of Tumah.
Furthermore, according to your reasoning, if you say that if one eats a Rishon and becomes a Sheni, I accept that. However, why does one who eats a Sheni remain a Sheni? If the person is less stringent than the food, then they should become a Shelishi when eating a Sheni. Rabbi Eliezer responds that we find that a Sheni can make another Sheni through liquids. The Gemara continues to explore how a Sheni can make a Sheni through liquids. When a Sheni touches a liquid, it can elevate the food to a Sheni.
Rabbi Yehoshua argues that he does not learn from the liquid but from the food itself, as the liquid becomes a Rishon to elevate the food to a Sheni. The focus remains on the food aspect, not on the liquid. Thus, a Sheni will remain a Sheni when it touches another Sheni but will not downgrade the status of the food. The Gemara further discusses that even if a Sheni touches the mixture, it does not render it a Rishon or a Sheni regarding Terumah.
In conclusion, the dialogue between Rabbi Eliezer and Rabbi Yehoshua deepens our understanding of how levels of Tumah interact with different types of food. Rabbi Yehoshua maintains that the levels of Chullin treated with Terumah still apply, while Rabbi Eliezer emphasizes the inherent differences between the food itself and the eater. This intricate discussion sheds light on the complexities of Tumah and Taharah, illustrating the careful distinctions that must be drawn in halachic discourse.